SID: You know, here in the West, we don’t understand an Eastern covenant. Why is it we’re so ignorant on eastern covenants?
CRAIG: You know, Sid, people in the east understand covenant in a totally different way than most of us that live in a western nation. And the reason that is, is they, it’s been in a culture and experience. Here’s what a covenant is. A covenant is the most solemn agreement known to man only broken by death. Death is the only thing that breaks a covenant. So in an eastern thinker’s mind, if I give you my word in covenant, there is a 100 percent chance that I will fulfill it, because I would rather die than break my word. In the West, that concept of covenant has been exchanged for a totally different concept of contract. Now sometimes we use the word “covenant”, but what we actually mean is a bilateral, totally conditional contract, meaning a contract is this. If you give me your word and I give you my word, it’s totally dependent upon the performance of each person. If you do what you said, I will do what I said. But if you break your word and you don’t do what you said or you’re unfaithful to me, or you betray me, or you hurt me, or you turn against me, or you cheat me, I’m totally justified to terminate relationship with you and get rid of you. I don’t have to relate to you anymore. Or if I agree to sell you something, if you don’t give me the money, I don’t have to give you the thing. That’s a contract. A covenant, on the other hand, the best word, and we see this word used all the time in the Bible, is “promise”. If I make you a promise and I say, “Sid, I will do this for you” or “I will give you this”, that is not dependent on anything you do or do not do. That’s 100 percent dependent on my integrity to keep my word, and that’s what a covenant is.
SID: Okay. I understand what you’re saying right now about covenant.
SID: But what about someone, because it’s all dependent on God, not dependent on our works, etc.
SID: What about someone that is living in unrepentant sin? Is God obligated to honor his covenant?
CRAIG: So here’s what we find. God will always be toward you. God will never turn his back on you. He said in Hebrews 13:5, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” That’s what Jesus said. So he’s always faced toward you. But then we read in Hebrews, Chapter 10, Verse 26, it says there, “If you continue sinning willfully,” in other words, you just willfully sin and sin, and sin, and sin, what you have actually done is you died spiritually. You kill the seed of the spirit of God in your own spirit, and it uses some very strong language. It says, “When you do that, what you actually do is trample underfoot the Son of God, defile the blood by which you were sanctified and insult the spirit of” what? The spirit of grace.
SID: That’s pretty interesting.
SID: The spirit of grace when you willfully continue sinning. What about that threshold where someone—explain that.
CRAIG: That is such a powerful concept. In the East, there is a very powerful concept that when a man invites another man to come into his home as a guest, he pours out blood right at the door, at the threshold.
SID: That’s really what happened at Passover.
CRAIG: That’s exactly what happened at Passover, what God told them to do. It was a common eastern custom. And when a guest comes and he sees that blood poured out, he knows he’s invited to enter into covenant. When he steps across the threshold, then the host says, “I will protect you with my life. All I have is yours. All I am is yours. You’re like family to me. I will protect you with all I have.” But if that guest comes and steps on the threshold, steps in the blood, what he’s saying to that host is, “I reject your offer to protect me. I reject your offer of covenant. I spit in your face and I die to you, and you are my enemy.” If you do that, you better have brought your army, because that host will slay you on the spot. That’s the very imagery that’s being used.
SID: And we don’t know that imagery that’s written in the Bible. But once you comprehend that imagery, you then can be confident in your relationship with the living God. There doesn’t have to be, like my grandmother used to always say, “God works in such mysterious ways.”
CRAIG: No he doesn’t. God works exactly according to his Word. But let me say one other thing that’s critical. There could be somebody watching right now that says, oh my, I think I’ve done that. I think, I might have committed that unpardonable sin, or I might be the one that’s trampled underfoot the blood. You know how you could know? You know you know if you’re that person? Very simple. Hebrews, Chapter 6 says this: “That person who has done that is impossible to restore again to repentance.” What that means is if you’re repentant and you say, God, I want to change, I want you to heal my life, I want you to set me free, I’m in bondage, God is there for you. He will heal you. You’re not the person who’s done that. The person who has cut themselves off from God and died spiritually is the one that doesn’t want to know God, doesn’t want to have anything to do with God. If you’re even watching us today, that’s not you. You can know that God is for you if you repent today and say, cry out to the Lord and say, “God, help me,” he will be there for you, save you, heal you and bless you.
SID: And you will have experiential knowledge with the living God. This is eternal life that you might have experiential knowledge of him. Make Jesus your Lord. And if you’re a little back-slidden, no such thing as a little, get rid of that little. Confess your sins. Behold…
Sid: My guest by way of telephone is Gene Mullenax. I’m speaking to him at his home in North Little Rock, Arkansas, and I love creative miracles. I mean the more outrageous the more I love it. This Friday night begins Chanukah, the Feast of Dedication, the feast of a great miracle that happened in Israel. I want you to find out about a miracle that happened right here in the United States. You see in the 1950’s your lungs started hemorrhaging. What brought that on Gene?
Gene: Well the doctors said “It was like a wart on the tree,” just a dead portion of my lung. The more I worked and the harder I worked I kept tearing the tissues of that lung. It got to where it would hemorrhage every time I would cough or pickup my baby or something I would start hemorrhaging.
Sid: Well you were just newly married, and a new father… I mean that’s a horrible thing to happen to you. What did the doctor say?
Gene: Well the doctor said, at first they took me off of my job where I was a sheet metal worker. I was working right here in the North Little Rock area on a big building. They took me off of the building and went to the doctor to see where the blood was coming from. He x-rayed me and said I have a 2½ inch hole in my right lung, it must be tuberculosis, that was back in ’54. So they sent me to Booneville to a TB sanitarium and I stayed there 6 weeks. They proved it wasn’t tuberculosis. So they sent me back to Little Rock and the lung doctor was Harvey Shipp, he was the best in the state at that time. He said “The only thing I know to do is cut in there to see where hemorrhaging is coming from.” That’s when I woke up to all my ribs being cut through and my right lung being removed.”
Sid: You mean you didn’t know this was going to happen?
Gene: No he said “We’re going to cut a little window in there and see where the hemorrhaging is coming from.” He cut me from the back of my neck all the way down through every rib I had all the way over back to my tummy and jacked me open to get in there to work on me. The other doctor that was his assistant said “I had your heart in my hand for over 5 hours massaging it to keep you alive.” Of course that scared me almost to death because I didn’t know what all was going on. They do it a little different now but it still hurts.
Sid: Well if I understand this correctly they totally removed your right lung and 3 of your ribs?
Sid: And they left you a souvenir a real ugly hole in your back.
Gene: A huge whole, there’s a 2 inch tube that went into my back to keep the secretion and the blood, what have you coming out, and there was a pump on me. Every time that pump would come on I’d scream, and that was about every 2½ – 3 minutes.
Sid: It seems to me that that type of surgery especially back then was very life threatening.
Gene: It is very life threatening I didn’t have a 50/50 chance to make it. It was just by the grace of God that I did make it because I had worn myself down till I weighed 117 pounds. Of course came out of the hospital that way and my right shoulder would drop down for lack of support.
Sid: Well after this drastic surgery Gene, were you able to work after recovery? How long did it take you to recover, if you even did?
Gene: Well it took me almost 3 years and I still wasn’t recovered. I’d go to the shop, the boss I had would let me work about whatever hours I could work 1, 2, or 3, or whatever, then I’d come home. This went on for some 3 years or better, and some days I wouldn’t even make it to work. I’d start then I’d be so weak I couldn’t work, I couldn’t get to work. This is the condition that I was when I went under the tent.
Sid: In other words, you weren’t really able to work a full job. You heard about a healing meeting, a tent evangelist. What did you think of this guy?
Gene: Well I didn’t know anything about religion, I didn’t know anything about healing, I thought it was a circus Sid. When I came home I came home a new way that evening just giving up. I’d been to the doctor and he’d give me a good fussing and told me to “Go home and quit bothering everybody that I wasn’t going to be able to work.” Of course I had a young family to make a living for and I felt like I had to. Anyway I came home a new way, I saw the circus tent which I thought was a circus it was a huge tent, it seated over 10,000 people. I went to sit off to the side and went in there because I thought it was a circus. Seven days later I fully found out that it was a religious meeting, but I kept going back to that…
Sid: Weren’t people talking about it that there was something phony about it?
Gene: Oh yeah they was… first thing I did was called my wife’s pastor. I thought he’d be excited about what was going on and when I called him he discouraged me from even going. Then there was other people they told me that they had the stage wired, and other people told me that when you went up on the stage the reason they reacted the way they did they poured something on you to make you act that way.
Sid: Make you act what way?
Gene: Well there were people jerking, and hollering, and of course he’s praying for people and everybody I went to see to be prayed for they were healed on the inside. I wanted to see something on the outside.
Sid: So in other words you weren’t so sure that it was true. They just said “Well I was healed” but you didn’t see anything that was convincing.
Gene: I didn’t see any evidence of it. Not knowing anything at all about religion or healing, or anything like that you can imagine what shape I’m in I couldn’t get anyone to go with me. Everybody was afraid of him or…
Sid: Even your wife didn’t want to go?
Gene: No she couldn’t go.
Sid: Now back then this was a guy by the name of A.A. Allen. You knew nothing about him but there was people who said they had miracles, but you thought the whole thing was phony. So why did you even go if you thought the whole thing was phony?
Gene: It kept call me Sid, it was like a magnet. After I’d get home I’d be so weak I could barely make it in the door, and I’d get home and it wouldn’t be 30 minutes till I would want to get up and go back up and see what was going on.
Sid: Now back then they used to… they had so many people that would go for a healing they used to pass out numbers. So you finally worked up enough courage and you got in line to get a number and you had a chance to talk to him. What did he say to you?
Gene: You know what gave me the courage to go to the tent?
Sid: What’s that?
Gene: It was the very last night, it was the last afternoon of the tent. That night was the last meeting I either had to put up or shut up. So I went out of pure curiosity as well as a necessity.
Sid: Tell me what happened.
Gene: Well I was standing in the line at the 2:30 in the afternoon meeting, I was standing with a bunch of other people. As Allen guy would come by and talk to each one of them just a minute and he would fill out a card on them, he’d give them a card to take home with them. He came to me and he gave me a pink card and that made me mad because I thought I ought to get a white one like everybody else was getting.
Sid: Why did he give you a pink card?
Gene: Pink cards was desperation, hm.
Gene: He was only going to pray for those cards that night. I got one of them by the grace of the Lord.
Sid: When he gave you the pink card did he say anything?
Gene: Yeah he asked me… first of all he asked me what church I went to and I told him I was a Nazarene because my mother-in-law was a Nazarene I figured that ought to do for her, she was a real nice person. So I told him I was Nazarene and he said “What’s wrong with you?” So I unbuttoned my shirt right there in the meeting and opened my shirt up so that he could see the bright red scar, my right lung was gone, 3 ribs was gone, huge whole in my back, my shoulder would drop down and I weighed 117 pounds, and I said “I want every bit of that back.” I thought it was coming from him and I said “I want it all put back in.”
Sid: What did he say?
Gene: He said “Do you believe God would do that?” I said “I certainly do, don’t you?” I still thought it was coming from him (chuckling). I didn’t like him at all.
Sid: Now I don’t understand why you even went to him if you thought it was all phony.
Gene: I’ll tell you the truth I was gone like a magnet. It was the most amazing thing, it was the Spirit of God I know now but I didn’t know it then.
Sid: Okay hold that thought we’re going to pick up right here on tomorrow’s broadcast.
Sid: Well I have a young man Larry Sparks on the telephone that he is just finishing up on his Masters Degree and the subject he’s getting it in anyone would like this. How in the world do you get a Masters in studying revival Larry? (Laughing)
Larry: Well I started my program and it was one of those things where I began with a Master of Divinity and Practical Theology. And over time it was one of those things where different concentrations came up. I had the opportunity to go with different things and one of the things that was available was church history particularly revival history. So it’s been really exciting to do that. And I’m just every time I go to class you know some people call seminary cemetery but the Lord’s really used it to ignite my faith exposing me to all of these stories of what’s God’s done.
Sid: Well Larry we’re talking today about your brand new book “Breakthrough Faith.” If there has ever been a time that people need a breakthrough that time is now! Before we even get into the keys for breakthrough I want to take you back right at you were saved at 16 and you started going to a church that was known for worship, but something happened to you that has literally changed the whole direction of your life. You had an experience; a man with an experience with God is dangerous to the devil. What happened to you?
Larry: Well it’s very interesting because and I want to encourage all of the listeners right now that for something to be supernatural it doesn’t need to be spectacular it can be very subtle and that’s what happened to me. I was on a quest to know God, I was looking at different churches it just came out of the blue it is the Lord just awakening this inside of me. I’d got a lot of information about God but information and revelation are two different things. You can have information about somebody but never be intimate with them. And so I got information I went to Christian school but at 16 years old I got my driver’s license, I heard about this local church that had something called Contemporary Praise and Worship which I had no idea I was just used to organs and maybe just kind of the old style of music in a church. I went and the message was good but the music was a little strange people were lifting their hands and clapping and it was bazaar to me but one night it was July of 1999 in that church I was standing there in the midst of worship very suddenly but very powerfully I felt like a heat in my chest and then kind of a electricity in my fingers. This was not stuff I was imagining it was a physical thing again I didn’t fall over I didn’t have anything like that happen but it was so deep and so profound I knew it was God, I knew He was real, and the amazing thing Sid is I’m still living out of that one encounter. Again it was so subtle I still live out of that because it was so wow this God who’s out there, this God who’s real more of Him to be experienced.
Sid: You know if you ever read the Wuest translation of the Bible?
Sid: It’s a fabulous one and John 17:3 says “This is eternal life namely that they might be having experiential knowledge of You.” And to me that’s the missing ingredient of 21st century Christianity. And yes you need to word, yes you need to be born from above but a man with an experience is as I said is dangerous to the devil. So you found yourself going to a church that was in what is called Word of Faith teaching. Now as you and I have discussed before this broadcast I started under a man by the name of Kenneth Hagen I didn’t go to his school and I read all of his literature and I got to know him personally. I found that short of someone that operates in the glory realm or in miracles say a Bill Johnson.
Sid: That if someone is struggling with healing that is the single best teaching that I know, and so this is how I grew up. But then the same thing that happened to you happened to me and that is people took the pure Word of Faith message in having to do with healing but then opened it up to other arenas like finances and then went overboard way beyond the people like Kenneth Hagen took it. What was your experience in this word of faith church?
Larry: Well first off it’s funny Sid because people will ask me you know reading my book or just knowing me in the past they’ll say “Are you one of the those faith people?” And I just find that such a funny thing it’s like what’s the opposite “Do you want me to be a doubt person?” You know it’s just like the reality is the word of faith movement from what I’ve studied and what I understand. It was actually been born out of a Biblical principal and that is just stand on the word of God, confess the word. In fact I was thinking about this Sid yesterday just as we’d been talking about it you know what Lord “The word of faith movement has actually made a huge contribution to the Body of Christ because in so many spheres and so much Bible knowledge, but Word of Faith particularly under the influence of Brother Hagen really encouraged us to put the word to work and actually speak it out and actually just sitting there and reading it which is good but he really invited us that movement really encourage us to put it into action. So I was at a Word of Faith church and so I got a lot of good principals was exposed the believers authority the power in the name of Jesus. Oh gosh another great one was “God’s Creative Power” by Charles Capps but what ended up happening is that we were there 7 years this was not the church I had the encounter with God at by the way this was a different church. And the church where I had the encounter really throughout the years to this very day places an emphasis on the presence. The word of faith church had a lot of principals but the presence of God was not their pursuit it was basically putting good principals into formulas to getting what you wanted from God. I remember there was a teaching series “How to get what you want and need and desire from God.” And the reality is God wants to meet your need I want to encourage the listeners God wants to meet your needs. He wants to actually fulfill the desires of your heart He wants to do those things the problem is God is not a formula; He’s not like Santa Claus, He is our best friend. The Holy Spirit is our best friend; we love Jesus because of who He is. And in the book I really place an emphasis on the knowledge God intimately knowing God because when we divorce intimacy with God, the presence of God from good Biblical principals again we turn God a person God the person into a formula and that’s what we found, that’s what we saw after 7 years of being in that movement. And you know that I would say is the imbalance of the Word of Faith.
Sid: I agree totally with that but you also found some sort of when they went way much further than people like Hagen in having to do with finances.
Larry: Yes, yes I mean the entire message it was funny the tithe messages asked the church, not just this particular church but these particular churches would be like an hour long sometimes, no exaggeration. It doesn’t mean that always bad but it’s just the emphasis when the bent of the emphasis is that church, when the culture of that church is all about using God just to get money and wealth and stuff and using those principals with plug in to the God formula and okay I’m going to plug in my confession because I just want to get what I need from God that just rubbed us the wrong way. What happened with me, and this is what sort of created tension with me and the church, I and some others in the church we looked outside of that particular teaching for people that were teaching about the presence of God, about intimacy with God. And people out there like John Bevier there were people that I knew at the time who were encouraging people to draw near to God.
Sid: Now just out of curiosity did you find yourself because of the legalistic approach coming under condemnation?
Larry: Yeah, yes I found myself in that position and other people did because it got so crazy and sometimes where as if you said something for example if you said “You know what I’m having a pretty bad day today or wow man my back hurts” if you say that people would actually say “Don’t say that you’re going to curse your life.” Now again there’s a balance again they’re saying “I’m having a bad day and they’re saying that my back hurts but then they’re saying you know what I’m going to die at age 50.” And actually believing that and confessing that and pronouncing that and confessing that over your life I believe you can I mean Biblically you can curse your life when you actually agree with the report of the devil.” But man that was the legalism…
Sid: But then because of where they were at and because of your hunger for intimacy with God you went from one extreme to another extreme.
Sid: Tell me what happened.
Larry: Well when we left that particular church after being there 7 years, I was there about 7 years. I wanted to run away from all of that I wanted to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Which by the way you know one thing I believe the Lord wants to do Sid as we’re talking just as He is in me I believe that He wants to heal our sins in our hearts because it’s easy to get offended by that stuff it is. It’s easy to get offended in situation where maybe you or a loved one were praying for healing or praying for a breakthrough and somebody said something real bad to you like “Wow you didn’t get healed you didn’t have enough faith or you didn’t make the right confession.” I believe Sid even as we’re talking about this the Holy Spirit is touching people and just bringing restoration and healing to ascend. He’s actually causing them to remember these things just simply repent for them and I believe the Lord wants to bring a Biblical balance to this and help people to walk in breakthrough. Because Sid the opposite I think, it was even I don’t know if it was just as bad or might have been worst, is that I ran away from all of that stuff almost running away from the Charismatic movement entirely I couldn’t. I couldn’t run away from the presence because I had been so profoundly impacted. So I was running away from the word of faith stuff anytime I heard anybody talk about it use any of that language there was a great offense or anger in my heart. And then what happened is we found ourselves in churches that basically they had faith for when you got to heaven you know “Well if God sovereignty wants to heal you maybe or if He sovereignty wants to move now that’s great but we’re holding out for heaven one day we’ll believe that we’ll be healed and whole and everything and all of our problems will be solved when we get to heaven one day.” But there was not a lot of hope for right now for today. We were in that for a couple of years and it was the exact opposite and what we noticed is I believed that a lot of people in that culture end up needlessly dealing with the devil. I mean needlessly walking in sickness and defeat and just being condemned and overwhelmed. So yeah that was the other opposite it was great theological teaching that we go about the cross and I am grateful yeah forever grateful, but when it came to walking in faith for now for now to see victory now it was quite the opposite.
Sid: And today when you prayed out to God and you said “Okay I feel like a billiard ball I mean I’m going this direction and I’m going that direction. You prayed to God “What is the truth.”
Sid: What did God begin to reveal to you?
Larry: Well you know what happened He immediately brought me to the word, and I would encourage the listeners that’s the best place to go because I was just doing for…I was doing a study of healing throughout the New Testament throughout the gospels just different healing stories. And I got to one and I read it and heard it before and heard message about it but man it really ignited something inside of me tenacity. And it was Mark chapter 2 where you have these 4 men who carry their paralyzed friend I mean the guy is completely paralyzed paraplegic cannot move they’re carrying him on a stretcher they bring him to Jesus they want to bring him to Jesus. But what happened is they get to the house where Jesus is and they can’t get in they can’t get in because of the crowd there’s this obstacle there’s opposition and my fear is that today that would happen and what would happen as a result of that we have a need, we bring it to Jesus we experience opposition and because there is an obstacle and we don’t immediately see a breakthrough the sad thing is a lot of people actually change theology about God because of what they don’t see. They bring their need to God, they pray, they cry out and they don’t immediately see something happen so they conclude “Well I guess God doesn’t heal, I guess God doesn’t want to do this and well we’ll just let God’s sovereign will be the sovereign will whatever happens happens.” I’d be okay if these 4 guys ended up making a different decision turning around going home and concluding to themselves “You know what I guess it’s not God’s will to heal our friend today.”But they did not do that and that just got inside of me Sid I saw what they did they were tenacious they were relentless they actually carried the parallelized up to the roof broke the ceiling, lowered him down to Jesus. And Jesus was not upset about this I think about this “What if this happened in churches today?” And “We don’t even want to think about this oh the service is being interrupted all of this is being is going on.” But if anybody, if anybody should not have been interrupted it should have been Jesus but Jesus did not get upset, He did not get bothered. He said “He saw their faith” and He said “Son your sins are forgiven.” And then as a result he healed the man, but we know what happened to know the outcome but what got me was the audacious relentless attitude of these 4 friends they did not accept the obstacle instead the obstacle caused them to press into God a little further and as a result they got their breakthrough. I’m wondering today for those of you guys that are listening to us if maybe your breakthrough I’m believing that maybe your breakthrough might just be on the other side of perseverance. And I’m praying that the Spirit of God would just give you a supernatural fresh anointing of perseverance and strength to contend for your breakthrough.
Sid: I believe people and that is so key people quit just before the victory. But let’s face it we do have an adversary. For instance I…you know what gets me so upset Larry is when believers real believers say “Well everything that happens to me in my life is God’s will.” What would you say?
Larry: I would say “You know what look at Mark Chapter 2 that’s just one example, one example.” I would say “Look at the different gospel accounts.” We need to go back to the gospels we need to be challenged by how Jesus responded because so many times whether it’s this paralyzed may being lowered through the ceiling, whether it’s blind Bartimaeus crying out, whether it was the woman with the issue of blood. This woman was nonstop blood flow 12 years pressing through a crowd to get to Jesus. These people actually did not allow there circumstance to be final; they did not believe that their circumstance and situation was superior to the word of God. They didn’t do so many people today do and it’s kind of a lazy theology they just say “You know what it happening so I default that it must be God’s will.” These people had something happening to them but they did not conclude that it was God’s will they actually thought that God’s will was actually something very different and they pressed in to receive it. And that’s why we have these stories in the Bible in the gospel they pressed in and they got the miracle, it’s amazing.
Sid: Now your brand new book “Breakthrough Faith” you wrote it for 3 groups of people who are they?
Larry: Well I wrote it first of all for people who are hungry, for people who want more of God and who want to actually see a breakthrough lifestyle become normal for them. Because that’s what God wants to do He wants to release something that is sustainable. Sustain not just a touch, not just an encounter those things are great but He wants this lifestyle to be sustained. So I believe…
Sid: That really is your passion of your life.
Sid: To have greater and greater hunger and intimacy with the God, that should be everyone’s passion.
Larry: Yes absolutely because here’s the thing there’s no limit to how much of Him we can experience. In Isaiah 9:10 “And the increase of His government there will be no end.” There is so much that He wants to release into the earth and He releases it into the earth through His people His kingdom. Where’s His kingdom? The kingdom inside of us so my desire is first that yeah this book would stir up those that are already hungry for God.
Sid: Alright the 2nd people group.
Larry: (Laughing) And really the second group of people would be people who have been offended or people who have had false…exposure to the false faith to the incorrect faith. Whether it was extreme word of faith teaching or the cardinal gospel of their spirit, people who are just about ready to give up on the what they call “All that faith stuff.” My prayer and my earnest desire is that not only would this encourage faith people people that are already believing for this but people who have no exposure to this. Sid that’s why I went to seminary that’s why I went I don’t believe it’s necessary to teach the gospel, to teach the word, I don’t think it’s imperative but I went because I want to do my best to steward these things and equip people especially those who are maybe not walking in a supernatural lifestyle I want to do what I can to bring a legitimacy to that. Sid that’s my desire through this book, through my own personal experiences with both sides and my best theological understanding of the Bible to help people who have just misconceptions and confusion about faith to actually start walking in it and get into and actually get hungry for it.
Sid: And of course the biggest need are those that feel that they’ve done everything they’ve been taught to do and they were supposed to be healed and they weren’t and they’re in a hopeless state you need breakthrough faith. This is what I can promise you you’re going to have a breakthrough of epic proportions this is what I’m going to promise you you will have a breakthrough of epic proportions. I believe that we had 2 of our staff senior producer types that read this book and they understood all about Word of Faith and healing and they said “What a breath of fresh air I feel like I’m now encouraged, I now have this breakthrough faith….When we come back I’ve got to hear the vision you had of the ancient rusty gates that are part of the entire breakthrough.
Sid: Are you ready for your healing? Are you ready? Are you expecting to be healed? I’m expecting you to be healed. More important than that God’s word says “By His stripes you were (past tense) healed.” My guest Peter Gammons Pastor of Cathedral of Faith in Orlando, Florida and we found out all this week the amazing miracles that go on under Peter’s ministry especially in Brazil you were in a church of 45 people were able, that were deaf, that were able to hear, they could not speak were able to speak. But actually it was 43 people when you left the service but something very unusual happened explain that Peter.
Peter: Yeah we had the 43 instantly healed and some had come from deaf and dumb schools where their teachers who would just cry and cry and cry as these beautiful students. The most incredible thing is that most of the deaf and dumb hear in our service are children and there’s nothing more incredible, nothing more beautiful than seeing moms and dads cry as their little children never heard and spoke, hear and speak. What happened was as I left the service we tried to get away at the end of the service and the people blocked the road they held hands and we couldn’t get out of the parking lot because they blocked it and so I got out of the car they wound down the window and asked what was happening and they said “We’ve got 2 more that were not in the service 2 more deaf and dumb they ran and out these people and they said “We’re not going to let Dr. Gammons go until they get healed. And so I got out of the car and prayed with them and those other 2 were healed in the parking lot.
Sid: Peter speaking about people that are deaf or mute there’s some people right now they can’t hear anything going on but a loved one heard our challenge yesterday to bring them by the radio. I want you to pray for them right now.
Peter: Let’s do that and if you’re with somebody’s who’s deaf this may seem a strange thing to do but I want you to put your fingers tightly in their ears. This is how Jesus ministered. I want to be like Jesus our call is to be like Jesus, our call is to continue what He began. He said “As the Father sent me so I send you.” And so our call is to just continue in what He did. Let me just say as I’m saying that in England we have a term called copy cat, it means somebody if you’re doing an examination and they look and see what another person’s doing and they copy what that person is doing. And they say “You’re a copy cat.” Well I’m a copy cat for Jesus, I’m a Xerox. I read in the New Testament what Jesus did and I try to copy exactly what He did. And when I do I see the same kind of results and Jesus didn’t just…I’ve seen people when they pray for the deaf they lay hands on the head or they put their hands over their ears just put their hands over their ears. But that’s not what Jesus did it said “He put His fingers in his ears.” So I want you to do what did just as I in the crusades that’s what I do I put my fingers in their ears and I remove them quickly and command those ears to be open as I do. And I’ve seen multitudes healed that way and I’ve also found that 1000’s of pastors around the world begin to see the same results if they begin to do the same thing that I’ve done. And so if your with somebody who’s deaf and dumb or deaf in one ear or deaf in both ears just put your fingers tightly in their ears and you can speak the word of faith too. I’m going to command those ears to be opened, you command those ears to open and hear in Jesus name and expect them to. And then begin to speak in those ears and so the people can hear. Father in Jesus name do it right now I command these ears to be opened and to hear for the glory of God. Turn up the volume you spirits of infirmity leave right now in the name of Jesus. Deaf spirits go, dumb spirits leave let them hear and speak right now in the name of Jesus Christ hear in the name of Jesus name. Thank You Lord Jesus, thank You Lord.
Sid: Thank you Father, you know Peter this will be a strange request I don’t know if anybody’s every asked you to do this before but there’s all different types of hearing, there are people that are deaf but then there are people that did not hear God’s voice clearly. And I believe if you’ll pray for people right now and they’ll do the same thing that you said. And that is put their own fingers in their ears and then pull them out they’ll be able to hear whatever that blockage is that’s stopping them from hearing God’s voice is going to be gone as in this moment if you’ll pray for them right now. And Mishpocha you put your 2 fingers in your ears as Peter begins to pray and then pull them out.
Peter: Yeah, I believe that there’s some people that’s saying God’s not speaking to me and the word of the Lord is “Go back to what He said before and do it.” Some people are waiting for God to say something else when they haven’t done what He told them to do before, they made a pledge and they never fulfilled that pledge. You know if God spoke to you before do what He says don’t expect Him to keep talking if you’re not doing the things that He’s already been speaking about. Father I command that spiritual deafness to go and for people to hear You and hear Your voice and Father we ask Your forgiveness for any who have heard You but not obeyed and that from this day would begin to obey and do what You’ve told them to do and reestablish that relationship and covenant with You in Jesus name Amen.
Sid: And Peter there are people with many different types of infirmities there is someone with a wrist that is very sore or painful and I know that if they’ll start moving it right now the pain will disappear. Will you pray for a number of different diseases right now?
Peter: Praise you Jesus one of the things that I discovered we went through for very formal meetings in the early days to where in the past 30 years where all across the world in 17 nations of the world. We usually have 1000s of people in a single service and I couldn’t lay hands on them all if I did I would die of exhaustion and yet they come hoping to get a touch from the minister. But I encourage the people “It’s not my touch.” I tell them time and time again I’m not the healer Jesus is the healer I don’t have healing hangs.” Because I want to point them to Jesus one of the things I’ve said all across the word is “I don’t have healing hands the hands that heal are pierced by nails. And I tell people you can lay your hands on your body right now and be healed you don’t need me to lay my hands on you. You can lay your own hands on your body where there is pain and I will pray one prayer and all across this auditorium and by television and radio as I do people will be instantly healed. And right now as I speak that I encourage those of you that need a healing touch from the Lord expect a miracle. Lay your hands on your own body right now where you have pain and when I pray expect to be healed and then begin to take a step of faith begin to do what you couldn’t do before. You couldn’t move that shoulder move it, if you couldn’t walk get up and walk in the name of Jesus in Jesus name.
Sid: Now it’s not just pain is it Peter it’s anything that’s wrong.
Peter: Yeah absolutely whatever the Bible says that He bore our sicknesses and carried our diseases all of our infirmities were laid on Jesus and He’s our substitute and receive healing in Jesus name. And I just want to speak a word as well Brother Sid to any that are tuned in and you don’t have a living relationship with Jesus Christ. You’re not sure that you’re saved right now in Jesus name just say “Jesus I want to know You.” My friends the Jesus I preach is not the Jesus of religion, maybe you’ve been put off by religion or by some Christians who were uncaring or didn’t represent Jesus or all kinds of things that did not represent Jesus. But my friend don’t follow the Jesus of religion or 20th century Christianity, get a New Testament and follow Jesus the lovely Jesus that you’re discovering in those pages who loves you and cares for you and died for you and wants to heal you. Just give your life to Him now say “Jesus forgive me and come into my life right now.” And let I’m going to pray for those that are sick and needy and need healing lay hands on your body. Father I command every sickness, disease, every infirmity, every pain to leave these bodies right now you spirits of infirmity go in the name of Jesus and never return and for people to be instantly healed right now in Jesus name. All across the world this is happening right now receive your healing in Jesus name and begin to do what you couldn’t do before. And I want you to write or call us and tell us what God has done. It’s an important key to maintaining your healing is to testify. The Bible says that we’ve got to believe in our heart and confess with your mouth. That’s where a lot of people they believe in their heart and they get it and then they don’t confess it. Let me just quickly tell you one of the main ways the devil robs Christians of healing is He heals them and then they’re invited to testify and the devil whispers in their ear and says “What if it doesn’t last you’re going to lose your healing, I guess that’s true and I’ll wait.” And what they don’t realize is that they’ve moved from faith from where they got healed to unbelief. And the devil then has a right to rob you when you get into unbelief and then he robs people when they say “Well I wasn’t healed in the first place.” Well of course you were healed now you just allowed the devil to rob you of your miracle. And don’t allow that devil to rob you write and call today and tell us what God has done give Him the glory because I believe God’s touched you right now in Jesus name.
Sid: My guest Dr. Peter Gammons who’s the senior pastor at Cathedral of Faith in Orlando, Florida. We’re talking about his newly re-published book “Israel in Prophecy,” literally written for such a time as this. We were talking on yesterday’s broadcast that exact dates are mentioned when it comes to the nation Israel. For instance, in chapter 4 which talks about the liberation of Canaan, you quote to the exact year from Daniel 12 verse 12 what will happen. Explain that.
Peter: Yeah, it’s amazing. The question is asked “When will this liberation take place?” The answer comes back in Daniel 12 verse 12 “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.” Now in Bible times a day often is used in the context via to a day context. Time and time again that happens throughout scripture. The Daily Commentary by Scripture Union Volume 214 points this out “This remarkable book Daniel ends with figures and dates that are not easy to decipher. One at least is absolutely literal, or else the most curious coincidence in history. This is the figure in verse 12 of 1,335 days. General Allenby captured Jerusalem in the year 1335. According to the Muslim calendar which was the one used by the Turks who at the time held Jerusalem, this was 1917 in our era and marked the first step of the liberation of Israel’s land.” So until the year 1917 the Turks reckoned by the lunar time and therefore there coins had different dates on them to the dates of our coins. So our 1917 was the year one thousand-three hundred and thirty-five, 1335. Just as Daniel prophesied in Daniel 12:12 “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days” that’s an impossibility of the natural isn’t it? The very year of the liberation will be the very time that was prophesied by Daniel, exact figures not something difficult for us to decipher; the coins minted by the Turks that year bearing those numbers 1335, one-thousand-three hundred and thirty-five.
Sid: Then you go on to chapter 5 where you talk about the establishment of the state of Israel and how many supernatural things had to occur.
Peter: Yeah it’s amazing it’s a miracle of God. Israel had no hope really that it would happen because they were not established as a nation at the time. They weren’t even allowed to be involved in the voting. So people listened to the radio broadcast from Fleshing Meadow on the vote that took place, and that in it’s self is an interesting thing. Here in my book “Israel in Prophecy” I list the different nations that either supported Israel and the establishment of a homeland for Israel, or the people that opposed it. It’s a testimony, interesting isn’t it that Russia supported and Russia was one of the key nations that was proposing Israel be established as a nation. Britain even after coming out of the horrors of the World War II and seeing all the terrible atrocities that had happened to the Jewish people, abstained. It’s a testimony for all of history and a sad testimony for some nations that they either opposed or failed to support Israel. Some even abstained and yet their abstention was a terrible thing and yet God by a miracle and a very narrow vote saw Israel established as a nation.
Sid: Do you have any idea why Russia supported Israel being a nation even brought it to the forefront? I mean if it wasn’t for Russia there might not have been a state of Israel.
Peter: (Chuckling) Isn’t it amazing it’s just one of those facts of history…
Sid: I, I, I… the Holy Spirit just corrected me, but there would have been a state of Israel if Russia hadn’t done it someone else would have done it. But anyway, why Russia?
Peter: But God used it yeah and a hardened communist leader who was the man that stood up there and supported it. I think there’s a number of things perhaps there was so many Russian Jews there that he wanted to release some of them from Russia, but I don’t want to put a natural reason on it. I believe that God supernaturally worked in that and that again shows His sovereign hand concerning Israel. You know you would think in the natural it would have been easier to cause Britain or one of those nations to support them, but God wanted I believe just to show that He is a sovereign even of history. At the time, and we’re going back at a time where Russia was feared as a great superpower, and yet still God was showing His hand that when it comes to Israel that He’s ultimately in control. One of the quotes that I like that I came across included in this book here was the time where Napoleon was sitting around the camp fire with his Marshals who were all atheists, the Battle of the Pyramids. They asked him “Do you believe in God?” Napoleon pointed to Marshal Massena who was a Jew and said “Gentlemen there is the unmistakable argument that there is a God.” Another quote that I put there was Frederick the Great saying to his chaplain “Show me a miracle.” To which the chaplain replied “Sire it is the Jews.” We see time and time again God’s sovereign hand as far as Israel is concerned is incredible that God still loves His people Israel.
Sid: Let me just read from your book when they had the vote Israel became a nation. Here’s one quote it says:
There was joyous outbursts and dancing in the streets throughout the Holy Land. Newspapers carried the bold headlines: A Jewish State
Of course you have reproductions of a lot of these things.
Golda Meir addressed the Jewish people from the balcony of the Jewish Agency building in Jerusalem announcing “For 2000 years we longed for deliverance. We awaited this great day with awe, now that it is here it’s so great and wondrous that it surpasses human expressions.” Many tears were shed as Hatikva was sung. The words “To be free people in our own land” acquired a new meeting.
But after Israel became a nation they couldn’t even take a breath. What happened Peter?
Peter: Yeah there was an attack. The Arab nations united together to try and destroy Israel. Each time they said “We’re going to destroy the nation of Israel” Israel ended up with great land it was a miracle protection of God. This tiny little nation but once again the hand of God was upon Israel. I like one of the comments that was made that “Israel had no other choice.” All the other nations had their own lands they had their own but Israel had no other choice. We’ve seen the miraculous protection of God time and time again where the Arab nation says “We’re going to annihilate this little nation.” God’s hand was upon them, instead of being annihilated they took further territory.
Sid: Peter you have in your book that Israel’s Air Force at that time was a small plane that was used for a private flying club. Israel’s Navy consisted of a converted ice breaker equipped with 2 – 20mm aircraft cannons and these were disguised with paper mâché to look like 6, I mean give me a break. If that wasn’t God who was it? (Laughing)
Peter: Isn’t it amazing it’s absolutely fantastic. Supernatural things that have happened too, some of the stories are miraculous interventions like in 1967 the restoration of Jerusalem. I love one of the stories where it’s reported that 2 Israeli tanks topped the sand dune in the Sinai campaign and found himself facing a complete Egyptian tank unit. The Egyptians stopped open their turrets jumped out and ran. One of the captured Egyptians soldiers reported there were hundreds of Israeli tanks. Isn’t that amazing?
Sid: They must have seen the angels.
Peter: Isn’t it amazing? Isn’t it amazing? Just a slight deviation from the subject, but one of my friends in Rhodesia as it was then, Zimbabwe today. Two of his church members were running from some of the troops that were shooting at them and they were in the hillside. Suddenly they said the whole hillside was filled with soldiers dressed in white who started shooting back at the rebel soldiers and so they ran. Incredible things God’s miraculous intervention and angelic intervention like God’s angels really are there to protect and fight on our behalf, of course Michael leading that great angelic army to protect Israel.
Sid: You know Peter it’s my thought and I believe this with every fiber of my being. The Bible says in the last days there will be great deception, false prophets that will come about. I believe that any Christian that does not have their theology straight on Israel is going to fall prey to these false prophets.
Peter: I believe so too. There’s a lot of deception, a lot of people misunderstanding, a lot of pretense from people saying “This was the land of the Palestinians” which of course they were not there people that were there beforehand. All kinds of things they were fighting for in the nations. I think it’s vitally important for preachers and for leaders that they make a stand for God’s word and for God’s love for Israel and for the nation of Israel. I believe that ministers will rise and fall depending upon their response to Israel.
Sid: I want to go back to something we were talking about earlier on. We were talking about the great Jewish zealots that went into Masada the fort, and rather than give themselves up they committed suicide. Recently they found what were known as the Masada scrolls.
Sid: Repeat what was in there.
Peter: Yeah they found them buried in the temple buried the prophecies of Ezekiel 37 that these bones shall live. A sign that they believe once again Israel would live and that the bones of Israel would be brought together, and that the nation of Israel would again miraculously be resurrected. This was at the end of this attack from the Roman army barely 40 years after Jesus had spoken the words “And they’ll fall by the edge of the sword and be led away and captive in all nations. Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” Titus and his army who had attacked and of course some of these Roman zealots who had camped out in Masada, this mountain top fortress that Harod who was afraid of everybody had built to protect himself. Finally the 10th Roman Legion under Flavius Silva crushed the resistance but before they took their own lives because they didn’t want to see their children and their wives raped and tortured to death; they still believed that one day, even though this appeared to be the end it appeared to be the last resistance the Jews having been spread throughout the Roman empire to try and cause them to lose their Jewish identity. Of course one of the amazing things that has happened because many of the Jews… most of the Jewish people didn’t intermarry they managed to maintain their identity as a Jewish people even without a homeland or without a nation. The scroll was hid there in the temple and only recently found. The words of it are absolutely fascinating…
Sid: I’m sorry we’re out of time.